Just finished it. Enjoyed it? Sure. But I was a bit uncomfortable at the use of a horrific, real-life tragedy within a crme novel. I’m not condeming his choice, just saying I’m on the fence. Wondering what eveyone else thought.

I was glad to see it, I thought it was handled really well.

I think you have to take these things as they come, one at a time, and not generalize. Sure, some “mystery” writers would use something like that for exploitation, but that’s a lack of talent not a question of genre. Elmore Leonard is a better writer than Hemingway, he’s in the same league as Camus.

What bugs me is that so few American writers ever write about this kind of contemporary stuff.

JohnMcFetridge - 06 April 2008 06:13 PM

I was glad to see it, I thought it was handled really well.

I think you have to take these things as they come, one at a time, and not generalize. Sure, some “mystery” writers would use something like that for exploitation, but that’s a lack of talent not a question of genre. Elmore Leonard is a better writer than Hemingway, he’s in the same league as Camus.

What bugs me is that so few American writers ever write about this kind of contemporary stuff.

Exactly i have read many great classic crime books that dealt real stuff that happened at their time.

Im alittle dissapointed modern write shy away from that and makes formulatic predictable crime.

Right now im reading Chester B.Himes’s If He hollers let him go.  Not as extreme tragedy as this but it deals with everyday racism of the 40’s in a badass,real way.

loose ends - 06 April 2008 04:43 PM

But I was a bit uncomfortable at the use of a horrific, real-life tragedy within a crme novel. I’m not condeming his choice, just saying I’m on the fence.

Yet the use of a horrific, real-life tragedy in “literary” novels get heaps of praise. Off the top of my head, The Kite Runner. Does that count as literary? I’ve always thought literary is such a vague word. Anyway, stuff like that is hailed as great.

Actually, I enjoyed The Kite Runner, but I enjoyed Pagan Babies more and think it’s a better-written book, a better book in general.

All that to say, I don’t understand why a silly thing like genre makes any kind of difference. I don’t understand what’s to be on the fence about.

JohnMcFetridge - 06 April 2008 06:13 PM

Elmore Leonard is a better writer than Hemingway, he’s in the same league as Camus.

What bugs me is that so few American writers ever write about this kind of contemporary stuff.

Camus?  The greatest novel ever written is THE STRANGER, right?  Argue that one.  I never thought of the correlation with PAGAN BABIES.  Maybe I should have.  Father Terry kills for a reason, but it doesn’t bother him.  He kills four people and lives his life. 

Does Leonard’s characters that kill with no remorse remind you of THE STRANGER?  I have never even contemplated that till now.

Of course they are just like THE STRANGER.

Who feels guilty about killing in an Elmore Leonard novel?

[quote author=“Robb” date=“1207546781]Who feels guilty about killing in an Elmore Leonard novel?

Stick does in Swag, though not for long (the two guys who try to mug him in the parking lot, later he counts up the people he’s killed and if he’s not exactly guilty about it, he’s thinking about it).

And, of course, there’s Teddy in Glitz. We had this discussion last year, but I enjoyed it then so why not bring it up again. Teddy Magyk is the best look into a sociopath in literature. Better than The Stranger because it’s not so freakin’ boring (and I like Camus, but my favourite is The Plague).

bill_1through4 - 06 April 2008 09:04 PM

loose ends - 06 April 2008 04:43 PM

But I was a bit uncomfortable at the use of a horrific, real-life tragedy within a crme novel. I’m not condeming his choice, just saying I’m on the fence.

Yet the use of a horrific, real-life tragedy in “literary” novels get heaps of praise. Off the top of my head, The Kite Runner. Does that count as literary? I’ve always thought literary is such a vague word. Anyway, stuff like that is hailed as great.

Actually, I enjoyed The Kite Runner, but I enjoyed Pagan Babies more and think it’s a better-written book, a better book in general.

All that to say, I don’t understand why a silly thing like genre makes any kind of difference. I don’t understand what’s to be on the fence about.

Thats why i dont take serious people that rave about “lit” books and expect genre fiction to be something lower.  The Kite Runner is a good example just cause its about real life events doesnt make it a good book.  Its about the authors ability.

IMO every genre or nun genre fiction is literary, doesnt matter if its crime or not if the author is good enough.

[quote author=“Parker” date=“1207534591]Right now im reading Chester B.Himes’s If He hollers let him go.  Not as extreme tragedy as this but it deals with everyday racism of the 40’s in a badass,real way.

If you’re reading Chester Himes, you might be interested in this article, which also has stuff about Donald Goines and Iceberg Slim.

Its actually thanks to that link i found out who Chester B.Himes was.

Its sad many authors didnt get their due credit just cause they are black…...

Parker - 09 April 2008 03:14 PM

Its sad many authors didnt get their due credit just cause they are black…...

Some people would say it hasn’t changed much. There’s a whole category in American fiction now called “Urban Lit,” which just means black, and which doesn’t get much mainstream press.

You can get more info here: Urban Book Source
Or even here.

There’s even an Elmore Leonard connection, through The Hip Hop Literacy Campaign.

Thats even more depressing that still happens today.

I dont like that i have to work hard to find books by even the acclaimed black writers.

Parker - 10 April 2008 07:19 AM

Thats even more depressing that still happens today.

I dont like that i have to work hard to find books by even the acclaimed black writers.

If it makes you feel better, the internet helps a lot. All these books are available from online booksellers like Amazon and even directly from the publishers.

I remember in the early 80’s when I first discovered Elmore Leonard, going to many bookstores looking for the books. The paperbacks had just come out, 52 Pick-Up, Unknown Man #89, Swag, that series. Even with all the press he was getting, the cover of Newsweek and everything, it was hard to find all the books. It’s so much easier now.

Thats true i can find almost any book from online sites fast these days. I use fantasticfiction.co.uk   They have 100 000’s of writers and all info about their books.  Then say to my bookshop to order them for me with best shipping price.  Thats of course for books they dont already have.

Speaking about Pagan Babies, i read the opening in the bus an hour ago when i was coming home from the bookshop.  It was very powerful,dark and great !  I liked Terry instantly specially when he said ” Bernard i have visions too “

Terry is a great character. I really like the part where Randy becomes a mob guy. The description is beautiful as the change takes place in his mind.

I’m looking forward to hearing what a ‘new’ reader thinks of the book.

loose ends - 06 April 2008 04:43 PM

Just finished it. Enjoyed it? Sure. But I was a bit uncomfortable at the use of a horrific, real-life tragedy within a crme novel. I’m not condeming his choice, just saying I’m on the fence. Wondering what eveyone else thought.

loved the novel.

became more informed about the Rwandan Genocide then any news source.
being informed through an Elmore novel- how can that be bad?

This was one of EL’s best.