I wish they could’ve cleared up the “loping commentary” Westlake sensed in Maximum Bob that he said definitely didn’t come from the characters. I almost understand what he’s saying, but I guess I always took it as a lot of Leonard’s characters have similar attitudes and he certainly has a consistent narrative sound. Westlake really surprised Leonard with that observation.

Now, I hate to dispute the man himself, but he says, “I would never shift point of view from one person to another within a scene. I would set it up as another person’s point of view in another scene.”

He actually does exactly that—not a whole lot, relative to his amount of work, but he’s done it many times. I posted about it quite a while ago because I was absolutely shocked when I first noticed he shifted POV within a conversation, without at least a line break. He doesn’t do it sloppily like the Tom Clancy-types; when EL does it, usually he’s in one character’s head to start the scene, then there’ll be a lot of dialogue without any character thought, then the next POV we get is not the same character who started the scene. So it’s not as noticeable as an abrupt switch. But still, mostly he consciously avoids switching without line breaks. For example, the first chapter of Riding the Rap.  He shifts between Raylan and Dale Crowe Jr.’s POV, but always with a line break between. Same thing in Out of Sight.

However, off the top of my head, Swag, Gold Coast, LaBrava, Rum Punch, Pagan Babies, Mr. Paradise, and others all have ‘unmarked’ POV shifts within scenes/conversations. Some more than others. Swag probably most. Not every scene, but Frank and Stick’s POV trade off multiple times in the book without line breaks.

The reason I bring it up again, I have a hard time believing Elmore Leonard wrote that many scenes that way without realizing it. Maybe if it were just a couple scenes, but I’ve noticed it fairly regularly over the past couple years. But I find it equally hard to believe he consciously wrote them that way and forgot about it or knowingly said otherwise.

for whatever good it’ll do him, i’d just want to let bill know that his post outlines and expresses exactly what I felt while reading the on writing piece. except I wouldn’t have been able to express it so clearly and eloquently.
the “loping commentary” concept indeed is a very interesting way to describe the leonard effect. reluctant to own up to it though the man may be, there IS a moral statement being made by elmore’s particular brand of narative grammar, that goes beyond the “ten rules” business.
now, the POV switch: it’s obvious elmore’s broken “his” rules many many times over, either by convenience, laziness or neglect.
it is also obvious the rules are themselves an object of POV switches on elmore’s part. sometimes, with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek, he goes Moses on us and holds on to the damn rules as if they truely were a matter of life and death.
other times, it’s just as obvious he feels like this “ten rules bit has done gone outta hand”, as waylon jennings could have sung.
one thing’s for sure, though: you can put his man westlake in front of him or hold a gun to his face, never will you manage to have the old dog allow his anti-intellectual snobism to drop, even for a second.
1°) but you cannot come up, albeit in jest, with the ten rules thing and then entertain the fiction that you’re foreign (adversary, even) to any type of rationalization of your own work.
2°) La Rochefoucault, the XVIIth century french moralist wrote something which, roughly translated, would go: “he who refuses honors wants to be commended twice”. You can see some of that posture at work chez Elmore: “I’m a NY Times best seller AND a writer’s writer AND may be the most influencial and seminal stylist since whoever AND like to behave as though there was nothing to it. another day, another buck. the Jack Nicholson syndrom. vanity, granted, but it doesn’t matter, coz…
3°) being an absolute genius, a groundbreaking stylist and a provider of pleasure that only some great musicians can compete and compare with, Elmore Leonard sould not only be commended twice, but thrice - no, ten times and then some. now, loving him and being grateful just doesn’t mean we have to get fooled by the attitude every time.
anyway, I just wanted to say I enjoyed Bill’s post is all.

bill_1through4 - 04 January 2009 08:59 PM

However, off the top of my head, Swag, Gold Coast, LaBrava, Rum Punch, Pagan Babies, Mr. Paradise, and others all have ‘unmarked’ POV shifts within scenes/conversations. Some more than others. Swag probably most. Not every scene, but Frank and Stick’s POV trade off multiple times in the book without line breaks.

That’s interesting, could you give some examples? What I notice with Swag is that it’s often a fairly long way into scenes before we actually know who’s POV it’s from. But maybe you’re right. I just read Chapter 1: it starts with the two paragraphs about the pictures of each guy and then, The first time they ever saw each other... which sounds like a narrator, and then it seems to be Stick’s POV, with stuff like, Stick could smell the guy’s aftershave lotion... but then Stick leaves and the scene continues with Frank calling the cops and not caring personally if he gets away with it, But there was something personal about it if the guy was driving down Telegraph grinning, thinking he’d aced him. So maybe there should be a line break between between, “Fuck no,” Stick said, and took off, leaving Frank standing there in the drive,” and Frank went into the used car office.

This is why I say Mr. Paradise is the most underrated book (relatively speaking). The prose style, the voice, as they say in the lit department, that’s being refined in all the books is pretty close to perfect in Mr. Paradise. That same scene from Swag would be even tighter today with nothing like a narrator.

Imagine that. Forty-some books and he’s still working to get better.

First, thanks for the kind words and welcome to the forum, chalumeau. EL certainly does like to play it coy on occasion. But I still wonder if that was the case here when he said, “I would never…” And I agree he should be commended many times over.

John, I read Swag from the library nearly a year ago, so the only specific example I can point you to is the party and balcony scene where Frank drops the Myth of the Pussy speech. It starts in Stick’s POV and switches to Frank. I’m fairly certain there are more than a couple of instances. Examples from the other books include Cundo Rey and Nobles (several times) in LeBrava, the cops on stakeout in Rum Punch, and the bad guys in Mr. Paradise. Also, Swag isn’t the only book with scenes of long conversation without POV for multiple pages.

I think there are other openings (of books and/or just chapters) that aren’t necessarily from a character’s POV, but that omniscient thing never lasts long, just a way of setting the scene Elmore feels best. The opening of Road Dawgs puts us in Foley’s and Cundo’s heads right away.

I liked Mr. Paradise, but I didn’t think the POV was always as razor sharp as most of the other books. For example, I could barely tell the difference between the two hitmen. I know that probably a big reason is the bad guys are often two different ethnicities, whereas these two were just a couple of white guys. Heck, that may have been completely intentional—couple of dumb dudes who may as well be the same guy. I just think they were two of the least striking characters I’ve read in an Elmore Leonard novel.

On the main site the link to this interview doesnt work.

Any other link ?

Parker - 26 January 2009 09:46 PM

On the main site the link to this interview doesnt work.

Any other link ?

Yes. John posted this link in the R.I.P Donald Westlake thread.

Thanks i must have missed that for some reason.

I like reading Westlake’s own words about his work and other things.  Thats my main reason to read the interview.  EL is a new favorite but Westlake is my main man in the genre.

Parker - 26 January 2009 10:31 PM

Thanks i must have missed thay for some reason.

I like reading Westlake’s own about his work and other things.  Thats my main reason to read the interview.  EL is a new favorite but Westlake is my main man in the genre.

Welcome. It’s a good interview, isn’t it.
However, I’m a Westlake virgin; I’ll have to address that at some point in the future.
Any recommended first reads?

It was a great interview you saw how Westlake,Leonard thought about what they did.  I liked their words about Chandler,Hammett too.

Best Westlake books are Richard Stark ones with Parker there is a reason there almost 30 books of Parker series.

Like Westlake describe in the interview its lean,stark and all about the characters and their world. 

I gotta warn you thought that they are short in paperbacks since the first book is from 62.